True, esp. with regard to Hiroshima.

More details available, but I'm leaving to show a house I have on the market.


GKC

Truman was a b******d who killed innocent people so he could try out his new nuclear toys. The Japanese had indicated that they were beat and they knew it. Right up till the bombing, the negotiations were ongoing, with one sticking point that the Americans in their arrogance, would not concede to even one condition -- that the Emperor, a holy figure to the Japanese nation, remain in place. Had this been allowed, the Japanese would have agreed to stop the war.

And for this minor point, hundreds of thousands died. And, of course, that little fact was never told to us in the history classes we took, was it?

It is suspected, although without proof, that another reason for the desire to drop the bomb was to serve warning on the Russians that they had better stay in line.

A PEOPLE'S HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES HOWARD ZINN PP 423 - 424

And exactly how noble was this war?

A PEOPLE'S HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES HOWARD ZINN PP 408-409

It could very well be that Japan did not like "the way we live" considered that the way that the government lived was to support the Capitalist expansion of imperialist takeover of neutral countries for the sake of making money. I am not talking about average people like you and me. I am discussing that 1% of the hyper wealthy in this country, the Robber Barons and Captains of Industry who's behavior over the decades has shown a distinct disregard for the common man, regarding him as little more than an object by which money is made. If the Robber Barons thought that of their own countrymen and their own nationality in many cases, how much less then did they think of those with yellow, brown, or black skin? And of Catholics? In short, this has been a WASP country run by men with no moral bearing nor conscience other than the making of money by any means possible.

The "history" lessons we have been given in school would fertilize the world if they were ground up and spread on every farm in the world. But, as we know....the victors always write the history books, and the books will never, EVER tell the whole story. Only the sanitized version.

Now.....if you don't like what I have posted.....if you don't like Howard Zinn.....you have a choice. Either rant and rave at me, which will do nothing other than create bad feelings, or produce well documented proof otherwise. I tend to believe Mr. Zinn, and here's one reason why:

Many years ago I met an old guy who had been a bombadier on B-29's flying missions over Germany at the end of the war. They were shot down, parachuted to safety, and as they retreated towards friendly lines, found a farmhouse to bivouwac for the night. As they foraged around, he told me that they found an abandoned German machine gun, on the bottom of which was printed "Made USA Singer Sewing Machine Co."

He told me that the guys were livid when they saw that. But like most of the men who nobly went to war for this cause, they didn't know (because it was well hidden) that companies like DOW Chemical were doing business in Germany under different names, and reaping the profits.

The Bible says "For the love of money is the root of all evil"

The Capitalists in this country have proven that to be true over and ove and over again.

Ed,

You know about me and Chesterton?

And about me, and Apostolicae curae?

Or about me and Henry VIII's quest for a decree of nullity?

Or about me and C. S. Lewis?

Hobbies all, in my studying, huge sections of my library, books without end.

Me and the history of the use of the two bombs in WWII are about the same. That is, I don't rely on one book (and for the junk you are proposing, Zinn is not the man, Alperovitz is), nor one viewpoint. Nor do I use the internet. My library on the subject runs to 70+ volumes, on all sides of the issue.

I'm not going to rant or rave at you, re: Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I'm going to tell you that you haven't said one factually correct thing (factual, as to historical fact, rather than revisionist nonsense) in this post, re: the use of the atomic weapons in 1945. And I'm going to give you a suggested reading list, none of which will I expect you to find and read.
And I'll offer, after you haven't read them, to start a discussion with you on the matter, one of your points at a time. This is not something I enjoy doing. I hate the topic. But I hate revisionist history more.

For your side, try Alperovitz' THE DECISION TO USE THE ATOMOC BOMB. It's the most currect revisionist tract out there. I can recommend more for you, of a simialr tone.

For history, try these:


Frank/DOWNFALL (Essential. You do not know the story if you haven't read this. )
Newman/TRUMAN AND THE HIROSHIMA CULT
Feifer/TENNOZAN:THE BATTLE OF OKINAWA AND THE ATOMIC BOMB (after reading which, tell me why this was an important relationship).
Maddox/WEAPONS FOR VICTORY
Maddox/HIROSHIMA IN HISTORY:THE MYTHS OF REVISIONISM
Newman/ENOLA GAY AND THE COURT OF HISTORY

I will provide more.

The point, Ed, is that I know more about this than you do. I've studied it for over 20 years. At one point, I worked with some veterans of the Manhattan Project. And I remember your old guy, whom you mentioned before, who supposedly flew B-29s over Europe. You may remember that I told you then, that he was a dubious source. No B-29s were ever used in the European theater. I can recommend the books to read on that, too, but it's a peripheral point. And I'm pretty sure I told you at the time that Singer, a world-wide company, had a huge factory, in (IIRC) Wittenberg. Which was taken over by the Germans (that is, was stolen, and used) and made German war material. Guns, likely, as Singer also did in the American Singer factories. As was done with the Singer factory in the USSR, similarly.

This will require me to stop my Lenten reading and dig back into the refutations of the revisionist crap. I hate that. I'm busy. But my offer stands, esp. if you get busy and read what I suggest. Here's the bottom line. No negotiations were on-going. None. No one in Japan was offering to surrender. No one. No method of concluding the war was available that would not result in many, many more deaths and casualties than the use of the two bombs. This does not address at all the RCC condemnation of weapons of mass destruction; I don't deal in that. I deal in history, or the best projection which history permits one to make.

Two planes. Two bombs. No more killing.

Good.

GKC

Fair Dinkum. After all, I did ask for proof, did I not? I am no fan of Socialism nor Socialists. They are not on the "love list" for any good Catholic of conscience.

And, as noted in reviews on Amazon, Zinn's book does have not only a distinct bias, but is lacking in a very important area -- footnotes. He claimed that if he had produced all the footnotes from all that he had read, he would have been another 3 or 4 years getting the book out (hyperbole perhaps, but he was trying to make a point).

There are two sides to every story. The hard thing is to try to ferret out who is the liar. "Truth" can become very subjective sometimes.

As for the old man and the bomber -- you are going to have to cut me some slack. This was almost 30 years ago and it may have been B-25's. All I know is that he regaled me with stories of flying for an hour and then told me this story.

Now...there does come a question which I ask in all kindness. Are you so tied into your position that automatically anything written by the opposition is just wrong? I think we all, from time to time, can take that position with subject matter that disagrees with where we find ourselves, can't we?

And finally......knowing and observing human nature and the fact that our brokenness by sin has driven the human race to conquest and constant attemts by various figures for world leadership, I do not think that these corporations are all pristine exemplars of moral integrity. That knowledge of human behavior over the centuries tends to lean me in the direction of believeing Zinn's claims.

Honestly, I'm not interested in revisionist history from either the left or the right. I guess one day, when the Lord wraps everything up and finishes this work, it all may come to light and we'll know the truth about it all. Up till then....... sheesh, it's maddening.

Okay. Looking up the books and sources and doing a little research.

Richard B. Frank writes for the Daily Standard. You expect me to believe that a contributor to a right wing magazine is going to be unbiased?

I know Zinn is biased. That's why I am reading him with a grain of salt. (I know it doesn't seem that way, but I am not so much in love with him that I am closed off to other views).

Do you in turn recognize that Frank may also have some bias-demons lurking in his psyche?

I'll keep looking.

AH HA!!!!

Here's a very interesting quote from Robert James Maddox:



Interesting!!!

Yes, he is a jack-ass, almost a pre-requisite to star in Hollywood anymore.

I think I shall pass on Alperovitz's revisionist history, inasmuch as it is entirely possible (knowing his Socialist leanings) that I have already imbued myself with the contents of one such book.

Maddox's book looks like a good read and not too terribly long. I speak of HIROSHIMA IN HISTORY:THE MYTHS OF REVISIONISM.

Think I shall order it

Thank you for aceeding to my wishes and providing me with the requested proofs.

Is it idolatrous for me to worship GKC as a living demigod?

This is a lovely portmanteau of "current" and "correct"

I'm telling you, as one who has read all sides, that Frank's book, DOWNFALL, is the best single exposition if what was going on. (And his book on Guadalcanal is also excellent).

Read, come back and identify a bias. Other then for historical fact.

Yes, Maddux is interesting. That's why I recommended his books. In one of which (HIROSHIMA IN HISTORY:THE MYTHS OF REVISIONISM; he was editor and contributor) you'll find that very article by Giangreco, cited (p. 76). I'd also like to recommend Giangreco's HELL TO PAY, but it hasn't come in yet. And Newman, as cited on the USSBS and its problems (mainly Paul Nitze), is in TRUMAN AND THE CULT OF HIROSHIMA, pp. 33-56.

I don't use the internet, remember. I don't have snippets. I have the books. History is complicated. (How many times have I said it, over the years?) You can't take a couple of internet hits, and a book by a man with an agenda, and run with them.

Want more?

Hasegawa/RACING THE ENEMY. Middle of the road, disagrees with Frank on a point or two, but each respects the other.
Allen&Polmar/CODENAME:DOWNFALL. Less detail than Frank, but still good.
Pacific War Research Society (Japanese academics)/JAPAN'S LONGEST DAY. The final 24 hours. How the war ended and why. You need to know a lot about the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War and the last gozen kaigan. And a lot of other things. How many B-29s were available for LeMay's use, in August? What was the conventional bombing capacity that LeMay and 20th Air Force/XXIst Bomber Command had available? What were the next list of targets for conventional bombing? How many bodies in those targets? What is the best estimated cost of lives/casualties, per month, in the Pacific Theater (not merely Japan), had the war continued?

Want another title you might find more to your liking?

Lifton&Mitchell/HIROSHIMA IN AMERICA. Harvey Cox and Kurt Vonnegut liked it.

GKC

Taking these in turn.

I am so tied to the idea of finding out what happened, history, that is, that I buy every book on the subject I can find, and read them. Which makes my judgment informed and well rounded.

BTW, whether Alperovitz is a socialist is of no matter. He's wrong.

If you want to ferret out a liar in all this, read Pellegrino's THE LAST TRAIN FROM HIROSHIMA. If you can find it. The publisher pulled it last week, after only a month or so on the shelves. Wonder if my 1st edition is going to go up in value.

GKC

Newman's TRUMAN AND THE HIROSHIMA CULT is also highly recommended.

If you dodge Frank/DOWNFALL, you are a sissy.

You're welcome. But they are proofs only to the extent that you read, in depth, and see that they are proofs.

I shall now try to catch my breath and calm down.


GKC

There is as yet no definitive statement on the matter.


GKC, living something or other.

I agree, and plan to copyright it.

I am not so hopeful, as to "ATOMOC", but something might be done with it.


GKC

Well, do calm down. You have admirably proved a number of points, not in the least the point made in the OP, which is that Tom Hanks, while a fairly good actor, is no historian.

You made an interesting comment regarding the fact that you are a historian and are addressing this issue as opposed to the morality of using weapons of mass destruction.

Taking what you have given me and what I have read in snippets from the suggested readings....if Truman was facing addtional deaths that could have run between 1/2 a million and as high as 5 million, what do you think might have been a better course of action to conclude the war with the least possible civilian and military casualties?

The way I am parsing this....he was in between a rock and a hard place. Yet I wonder if there might not have been some other alternative.

Anyhow, thank you for cluing me in so that I can perhaps look a little bit less the fool next time this discussion comes up.

Passion...........always.

Reason............meaaaaaaaaaahh!

Learning..........the cure for number two.

O how nice! I now know a cool new word.

Portmanteau.

My, that rolls so lovely around the palate!!

Ed,

I am, of course, no historian. I'm a reader of historians. And maybe I've proved something, maybe not. I threw a lot of books out there. I can cite the arguments that I find in them, in detail, contra revisionism, but proof is always in the eyes of the reader. I find these to be proof.

As to your question, this was the most parsimonious solution, with respect to deaths, that was historically and realistically conceivable. Deaths of all: Allied, Japanese, young, old, civilian, military, POWS, native populations, everyone. The war, in August 1945, was not confined to Japan. It covered much of SE Asia, China and the odd island. Ignoring, of course, the most parsimonious method of all. We could have surrendered to them.

Which, to be sure, would not happen. Nor would we have acceded to the 5 demands of the Supreme Council, for a negotiated truce (of which the maintenance of the kokutai was only one). Negotiated truce was what we tried with Imperial Germany, in 1918, as that generation well remembered. Didn't work out too well, over the ensuing 20 years.

What would have happened was one of two things. Operation DOWNFALL, beginning with the invasion of Kyushu (Operation OLYMPIC), and a bloodbath of unimaginable proportions (and you need to read Frank, and learn of what Ketsu-go would have consisted), or continued conventional bombing, on a massively increased and more efficient scale, on the next targets, the 180 Japanese cities with a population of at least 30,000 each. That's a target population of at least 5 million, minimum. And blockades, sure, starving the population, hunger being particularly fond of the young and the elderly, of course. Emphasis on the transportation systems, so food supplies couldn't move. And, always, the deaths in the rest of the Pacific. Estimates in Newman, around 300,000 a month, all told. Or both these things. And it could have been worse. There were plans, as the horrors of what the invasion of Kyushu would entail (see Drea's MacARTHUR'S ULTRA, or, again, Frank) became clear, to use all the additional atomic bombs available by the start of OLYMPIC (1 Nov) as tactical support for the landings. You have no idea how much worse it might have been, for everyone.

If the desideratum is parsimony in deaths (and for you as a RC it should not be; that's consequentialism), two planes, two bombs, no more killing. Good.

As you will note, you touched on something I do have a passion for. A subject I really don't like, but know.

GKC

That the death toll from continued fighting would have been massive and probably taken at least another 5+ years to finish is beyond dispute I think...

Consider...the Japanese were so stubborn it took not one but TWO atomic bombs to bring them to finally surrender....

Most people would give up after only one

But it actually took TWO....

You think they are gonna give up without putting up a fight?

For something comparable, consider.....in the Civil War, Sherman's March to the Sea was at the time one of the most brutal and destructive military engagements of all time, and it pretty much destroyed the South's will to fight....imagine if Sherman had to do that TWICE just to get the South to the bargaining table....

And I have to say also that I am frankly sick to death of all this whining about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, while NO ATTENTION is given to the FOUR DECADES of Japanese aggression in SE Asia that brought the conflict to that point. The Japanese were not helpless, innocent in all of this. This happened only after FOUR DECADES of some of the most brutal, savage atrocities ever committed in human history. What the Japanese did during and before the war was at least as bad as what the Nazis did, the difference is that, unlike the Germans, the Japanese were never held accountable for their actions. There has never been a public reckoning, and to this day the Japanese government has still not acknowledged them, and these atrocities are STILL not taught in Japanese schools. While every Japanese person knows about Hiroshima, comparatively few of them know about Pearl Harbor or the Bataan Death March, these atrocities have been simply wiped from the collective memory of the west.

Germany was not merely defeated, they were humiliated and forced to admit guilt, the Japanese never have been, despite atrocities which were at least as bad as those committed by the Nazis. Indeed, in 1993, a newly elected Japanese PM, Morihiro Hosokawa, on the anniversary of the end of the war, August 15, 1993, publicly admitted that the war was 'a war of aggression' and that Japan was at fault, and apologized for the atrocities committed during the war. Amazingly, his admission of the obvious was actually CONTROVERSIAL....and the statement has essentially been repudiated by subsequent governments.


I find it hard to think of Japan as a victim in all this.

I have no major quarrel with modern Japan, but it is long past time for the truth to be acknowledged. That an admission by a Japanese PM that Japan was actually IN THE WRONG during the war was actually controversial....something is seriously wrong here....and unfortunately Americans, beginning with MacArthur, are complicit in this whitewash.

The Japanese plan for resisting the invasion was known as Ketsu-go, Decisive Operations Plan, the Homeland defense plan. Understanding what the Japanese were preparing to do is one reason why I push Frank's DOWNFALL. And to understand what was involved better, Feifer's TENNOZAN, about what happened on Okinawa. Which was what, enlarged by orders of magnitude, would have happened if the invasion of Kyushu and Honshu had occurred. It makes Frank, the preeminent authority on the invasion, conclude that it would not have actually have taken place, given how much we knew about what it would cost us, not considering what it would have cost the Japanese. We would likely, he thinks, have continued conventional bombing, and other things, until, roughly, nothing was alive on the Home Islands, if necessary.

GKC